4ENCLAVE

A new home for the 4th Edition of the Worlds Oldest Roleplaying Game
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister  Log in  

Share | 
 

 Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:30 pm

The closest analog to things like Forge Weapon is Enchant Magic Item right - which is 100x better for the same price and level right?

Or am I missing something?

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Martial Practices Reborn actually paying attention to balance   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:17 am

Anybody up for a Rewrite of Martial Practices?

Ok first I will need to go through the existing Practices and give them an upgrade
We have Forge Weapon, Forge Armor and Master Artisan price needs to be 1/3 there current price or the Enchant Item needs to be 3 times its price. Further most magic items associated with martial concepts needs constructible this way.. they may in some cases involve seeding the magic in to the item via slaying a magical beast with it so the item then gains a power ie the awakened or stolen power trick but its just ridiculous at the moment.

I am already working on a branch off of it which includes Oath Magic and Blood-line Practices.

A feature that gives them something directly analog to Enchant item are these/Feats

Oath Binder: You can create boons and blessings or allow yourself or another to achieve a state of perfected skill that breaks the boundaries of normal capability as mentioned in the alternate rewards chapter in the DMG2 these effects are bound up in an oath which allows the effect to be lost if the oath is broken or abandoned or even upgraded these are bound with an oath "a behavioral stricture" which when broken - releases/rescinds the boon or blessing associated or decays the skill due some would say confidence and clarity loss. These boons have a charity price which is sometimes paid in advance or tithed or attained via affirmation questing. An affirmation quest may be a mystical quest or spirit journey and failure is possible (though such a failure means the boon is not created/affirmed/awakened). This cost is a direct analog to the cost an item creation ritual. An oath binder must be trained in requisite skills for certain subsets of boons (such as nature for the Totemic Oaths and boons).

Gift Awakener : a Shamanic style ritual which allows one to create Legendary and pseudo divine boons which are bound by taboos aka Geasa

Arms Master: a explicitly martial practice which allows one to create regimen which support Grand Master Training effects these regimen are daily kata which maintain the perfection in arms obtained forgoing the regimen decays the performance due to confidence and clarity loss and the ability is eventually lost. A daily Kata might include an hour of exercise per day (during which you are totally focused unable to do guard duty even) and maybe an hour of extra sleep (representing extra exhaustion).Lancelot is the inspiration here as in in many stories where Lancelot is found deeply sleeping during odd hours of the day due to the excessive martial regimen which allowed him to be the mightiest of all knights bringing that home to mechanics might be fun. The price of GrandMaster training usually involves a trial of humility and a test of worthiness. The former often involves menial labor often for a third party. The labor itself may not end up as menial as it first appears... and generally the forces of fate work to make it so. The test of worthiness is sometimes an actual smokescreen for an extension of the trial of humility.

http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:41 am

Question There should be things martial practices do better than Rituals and Vice Versi any opinions directly? I think with the using of Healing Surges makes them somewhat more suited to immediate activities.


_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:42 am

I have transformed the Comrades Succor in to Blood Brotherhood and Reaffirming Allegiance.

I think if martial practices existed in the PHB and they paid actual attention Warlords would have started knowing them.

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
ToeSama
Heroic Adventurer
Heroic Adventurer
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2013-05-16

Character sheet
Name:
Class:
Race:

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:06 pm

The problem with martial practices is there is no return for the investment as opposed to rituals and/or class features (Alter Ego can be done by any Executioner with a Disguise Kit for a +2 bonus, less time, and no healing surge cost). Any martial character can just grab a ritual scroll and profit if needed, where as martial practices must be learned to even be used.

If you want to make martial practices worth it, any character of an appropriate level with training in the key skill (check required or not) be allowed to use it, and don't even worry about having the feat or forcing characters to master the practice. Rituals will still exceed them, and the use of the practices might not improve, but at least they'd be a universal option that everyone can use when a situation arises that they could benefit from it for.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:38 pm

Or in other words dont design them so a high skill check is likely to do the same thing even if its derived of a skill. Here is one I would like to refine perhaps.

Blood Demand: This Martial Practice allows one to create a single service oath which is a compulsion to do something with a negative repercussions in the form of some affliction: Insert Table with Intimidation Skill Check showing the intensity of the Affliction / Duration.

This is a power often attributed to Paladins such as Lancelot. A common example of the task being "Travel to Camelot and peacefully offer yourself up for penance to the king and his mercy" - with a tacit you will sicken (and die?) if you dont . A Blood Demand counts as or creates an affliction.

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:42 pm

If the intimidate was strong enough to induce the enemy to "give up" see battle field use of Intimidate then perhaps the affliction is also of the intensity it could kill. How would you regulate the oath/task that you assign for the subject of such an effect?

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:55 pm

I had considered some Medical/Surgical Practices for analogs to healing rituals.

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:26 pm

Could or should some MP be replaced by auto critical on a skill use with a healing surge cost?

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:30 am

ToeSama wrote:
The problem with martial practices is there is no return for the investment as opposed to rituals and/or class features (Alter Ego can be done by any Executioner with a Disguise Kit for a +2 bonus, less time, and no healing surge cost). Any martial character can just grab a ritual scroll and profit if needed, where as martial practices must be learned to even be used.

If you want to make martial practices worth it, any character of an appropriate level with training in the key skill (check required or not) be allowed to use it, and don't even worry about having the feat or forcing characters to master the practice. Rituals will still exceed them, and the use of the practices might not improve, but at least they'd be a universal option that everyone can use when a situation arises that they could benefit from it for.
I have been looking at closer at them and most of them which arent as
I pointed out inferior rituals come close to enumerations of something I might simply allow via skill use... perhaps with a minor boost from spending the healing surge ... A general rule that allowed any skilled practictioner a benefit when spending a HS, might indeed cover most of them.

The ones I have been thinking about lke true analogs to rituals like a Medical Practice for Curing diseases and one for removing Afflictions and Blood-line Practices for Imbuing Legendary Boons and Grand Master Training (Via Oaths and Regimen) and the Blood Brotherhood. Are a different order of beast which ought to be worthwhile.

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Felorn Gloryaxe
Epic Adventurer
Epic Adventurer
avatar

Posts : 367
Join date : 2013-05-16
Location : United States

Character sheet
Name: Felorn Gloryaxe
Class: Fighter
Race: Dwarf

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:05 pm

Martial Practices much like Rituals had an unobtained potential. They could have went much further but didn't either from lack of interest or just lazy design. And yes, you are right, Martial practices are inferior to rituals in a few ways. Whether that was done purposely or not I have no clue. But they are. Mainly for the fact that they take longer than rituals (That have similar effects), cost the same, require a feat, and even use a healing surge. I would say to make them at least closer to being on par you would either need to reduce one of the things I listed, or, make the effect greater.

I also agree with Sama. Forget about the feat. Really the feat sucks anyway (for rituals too). I think it should just be some form of skill training, or just if their background suggests that they would have that specific practice. Removing the feat will not only make them more attractive to players, but it would also help balance them against rituals a little too.

Seeing more Martial Practices (including ones for medical examinations and surgery) would be cool.

_________________

D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

“The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear.” - H. P. Lovecraft

Like a Star @ heaven
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:16 pm

Mostly thinking from a flavor point of view.

Looking at Early and Ancient Historical Medical Practices (ones which had some truth to them) Many of the following were around during BC.
Leaching - reduces swelling preventing impairment from certain types of injuries.
Massage Therapy - relax muscles (similar benefits as above) and psychological benefits as well. Associated perhaps with laying on of hands.
Cleansing with Insect Larva - consume only dead and gangrenous flesh etc.
Prosthetics : Celtic heros with silver limbs that worked  ... real historic early egyptian digit replacements (the latter for instance used to maintain balance and functionality inspite of lost or undeveloped toes etc.)
Acupuncture : Results ranging from pain suppression to dealing with psychological hangups like addictions to inducing improved deeper sleep
Skin transfer - pedicle flaps: burn victim treatment to improve appearance by transferring skin from one part of the body to another.
Dowsing - using cool water to reduce a fever.
Cauterize - using burning hot metal blade perhaps to seal a bleeding wound and prevent infections.
Breath of Life - breathing air into the lungs of drowning victims might be old as well but I cant find references for it. ;-p and I might not care

Since the game doesnt elaborate on Afflictions at-all !!!!!  it might actually require some "critical hit system" which allows attacks to induce them. For instance one needs a wound which impairs movement to use techniques to remove that. -- the generic "Remove Afflictions" ritual is just hanging out there without any support.

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:54 am

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:
Martial Practices much like Rituals had an unobtained potential.
That right there is a generalized worry I have over 4e....

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Garthanos
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 930
Join date : 2013-05-25
Location : Nebraska

Character sheet
Name: Garthanos
Class: Arcadian Knight
Race: Auld Worlder

PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:15 pm

moving to its own thread concept

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.


Last edited by Garthanos on Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : cant delete posts grrrrr.)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.dyasdesigns.com/kingsmagic.html
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?   

Back to top Go down
 
Martial Practices Inferior On Purpose?
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
4ENCLAVE :: 4th Edition :: 4e General Discussion-
Jump to: