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 Avengers Visualized

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Garthanos
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PostSubject: Avengers Visualized   Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:13 am

4e introduced a few new classes and the archetypes they evoke are actually not new. The Warlord is my favorite but I also like the Avenger more than a little how do you envision the Avenger
... I guess this is an art thread.
A couple of examples.





Huge amounts of Louis Royos art actually qualifies ... And some I would even say look like Deva.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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Garthanos
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:01 am

Speaking of which


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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:03 am

I actually created a Taarna the Tarakian, hybrided fighter and avenger to closer match her fighting style as I saw it. At one point had her as a Deva twisting the reincarnation angle in to passing the mantle.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:12 am

Now, this is more like my wife's old warforged figher PC...but...this artwork is an Avenger to me. Is that top image from Heavy Metal the movie? haven't seen that in years.

I am a heterosexual male, btw, I don't mind the hot babes. But. Dude. This guy is a warforged avenger.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:45 am

The more I look at 'avenger' archetypes in mythology, and in art work, the more disagree with the unarmored idea that 4e D&D tried to sell us in the PHB2. But, that's really a fluff issue. Crunch-wise; the class really needs to do more damage. Even with the roll twice to hit their 'target'; other strikers hit harder.

Batman is an avenger. True, he has no religious basis to his story. But, seriously...How can one think of the 'avenger' archetype and not have an image of Batman float across their mind? Cool 

Thematically, I love the avenger class however. I just think it needs work.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:19 am

Batman certainly has some strong elements involved in the Avenger...   (he is also not dressed up in ironman gear inspite of having the tech for it and money - sometimes presented as not wanting to become gear dependent but its not faith = or atleast not faith in the divine)

That image started in Heavy Metal then had adjustments with realistic cloud base added and various shinies added ie it's an homage piece ...

The character Red Sonja is also very thematically avenger  some would think she was barbarian because of the Conan association... but the story is pure avenger with divine backing.



Me I think armored vs un-armored is interesting... armor of faith is very cool but I think it needs to be a broadly available option highly appropriate to clerics (oh look my pacificist clerics is protected because they trust the divine to do it).

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.


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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:41 am

"armor of faith is very cool but I think it needs to be a broadly available option highly appropriate to clerics (oh look my pacifist clerics is protected because they trust the divine to do it)."-Garthanos

That's a good idea. There really is no survivable option for someone who wants to play an ancient/old/ascetic religious person. The concept of 'faith being armor' should not be unique to just one divine class. Some, like the 'priest' archetype, should have access to it. Faith is a hard thing to DM. Especially if the PC is really into it. I still want to figure avenger powers to make them a real striker...even armored...and not a paladin. But, Luckily, I'm in a Dark Sun Campaign now...One that is drawing to a close. I don't have to worry about the divine for a few weeks, lol.

In reality, I am agnostic. In the game world, I want lean towards Bahamut. Wait...Maybe I mean that, but in reverse....


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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:50 am

seti wrote:
"armor of faith is very cool but I think it needs to be a broadly available option highly appropriate to clerics (oh look my pacifist clerics is protected because they trust the divine to do it)."-Garthanos

That's a good idea. There really is no survivable option for someone who wants to play an ancient/old/ascetic religious person. The concept of 'faith being armor' should not be unique to just one divine class. Some, like the 'priest' archetype, should have access to it. Faith is a hard thing to DM. Especially if the PC is really into it. I still want to figure avenger powers to make them a real striker...even armored...and not a paladin. But, Luckily, I'm in a Dark Sun Campaign now...One that is drawing to a close. I don't have to worry about the divine for a few weeks, lol.

In reality, I am agnostic. In the game world, I want lean towards Bahamut. Wait...Maybe I mean that, but in reverse....
I made up a contrary Dark Sun character using two divine classes who is thematically completely not Divine.

http://community.wizards.com/content/blog/786181

Here is something I wrote up for archetypes from my game world
Quote :

There is an aspect in both Bahamut and Tiamat, when bound by law and love it is justice and when released in selfish  whim it is vengeance. It is this primordial force that the Dragon Masters are named for and which they are bound to. They are their countries justiciars and by force of will and the mercy in their spirit they avoid insanity and uphold a very heroic archetype.

“This worlds dragons are not the same as mine, though it matters little as the Dragon within still roars with the same voice, for but a moment I make that voice mine and the ground itself trembles.”
I have even built some of them Dragonmen as Avengers.

They are in effect Channelers of Io!

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“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:39 am

seti wrote:
Now, this is more like my wife's old warforged figher PC...but...this artwork is an Avenger to me. Is that top image from Heavy Metal the movie? haven't seen that in years.

I am a heterosexual male, btw, I don't mind the hot babes. But. Dude. This guy is a warforged avenger.
I raise you:

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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:42 am

seti wrote:
That's a good idea. There really is no survivable option for someone who wants to play an ancient/old/ascetic religious person. The concept of 'faith being armor' should not be unique to just one divine class.
And this is why we play 4e, where fluff isn't tied to mechanics.

Wear scale, describe it as a bathrobe. Job's a good'un.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:17 pm

Fardiz wrote:
seti wrote:
That's a good idea. There really is no survivable option for someone who wants to play an ancient/old/ascetic religious person. The concept of 'faith being armor' should not be unique to just one divine class.
And this is why we play 4e, where fluff isn't tied to mechanics.

Wear scale, describe it as a bathrobe. Job's a good'un.
Heh, sure.

However I think some things are natural flavors and ought to be readily achievable operating fully within the games structures. The armored healer priest may actually be less natural to myth and legend than the robed dude...

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:22 pm

For unarmoured (or at least light-armoured which is near enough) - we have the monk, the swordmage, the avenger, and the barbarian. That fits plenty of those type of character who are armoured by more than mere metal.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:58 pm

Fardiz wrote:
For unarmoured (or at least light-armoured which is near enough) - we have the monk, the swordmage, the avenger, and the barbarian. That fits plenty of those type of character who are armoured by more than mere metal.
Not a one of that list is a "healer" so that is kind of a misfire - do we cast a tactical warlord as a robed priest? or actually enable it.

The Warlord has an Archer Warlord build option having a "Robed Priest" option for the Cleric seems to make sense to me - alah armor of faith.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.


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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:04 pm

Int-bards, Int-warlords and Artificers all wear light armour.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:15 pm

Garthanos wrote:
The Warlord has an Archer Warlord build trap option having a "Robed Priest" option for the Cleric seems to make sense to me - alah armor of faith.
Shame there is no "fixed" emoticon like on the WotC forums. But seriously, no one should take archer warlord. The ranged powers blow, considering their competition.

Also, the archer warlord doesn't get anything to boost his AC. He loses chain light shields. He is in hide + no shield. Given that you'd expect that archer warlords would take skirmishing, you'd be str-wis, which leaves with the AC approaching that of an unattended object. Going taclord and int is considerably better but it's still a net loss, especially because you can't get tactician's ringmail.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:27 pm

Fardiz wrote:
Garthanos wrote:
The Warlord has an Archer Warlord build trap option having a "Robed Priest" option for the Cleric seems to make sense to me - alah armor of faith.
Shame there is no "fixed" emoticon like on the WotC forums. But seriously, no one should take archer warlord. The ranged powers blow, considering their competition.
I checked I haven't built any using it, hmmm that itself is a bad sign - for strength based ranged shots if you want risky shot is still available and works nice with the Tac-lord.
Fardiz wrote:

Also, the archer warlord doesn't get anything to boost his AC.
That could be the issue right there.

Quote :
He loses chain light shields. He is in hide + no shield. Given that you'd expect that archer warlords would take skirmishing, you'd be str-wis, which leaves with the AC approaching that of an unattended object. Going taclord and int is considerably better but it's still a net loss, especially because you can't get tactician's ringmail.
Too much loss sure with inadequate gain- it doesn't mean having an alternate armor style option couldnt be interesting and workable for clerics.

I personally would put the enchantment of tacticians ring mail ... in a chess piece on a chain divorcing it from the armor.

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“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.


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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:36 pm

Well the bard does have a bit of prophet going on in it and the Charisma angle does have an Evangelic priest element potentially.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:43 pm

One view folk have of Avengers is religious assassins ... but guess what the original assassins indeed were a really a religious sect and the secular assassin most understand is more the derivative.

so maybe the Avenger in cloth armor looks like this.





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“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:22 am

You're a terrorist and I am going to report you to Fox news. Or the NSA. Wait, they are probably already clogged with this and the quintillion other blogs/websites/forums out there.ROFL 

I like armor being essentially fluff in 4e. a scale mail bathrobe. Made me laugh. And think.

Anyway, about avengers...

Personally, I feel they should do more damage. Divine strikers should not be weaker than martial strikers. Again, one could argue this is a flavor or fluff issue...But, I think avengers have some unique powers that set them apart. The roll twice and take the better is obvious. Maybe give them a 'bonus' feat: Proficiency in those special weapons (full blade, executioner's axe, etc.)
Or tack on another damage die? like the barbarian gets with their at-wills....

Still don't have my PHB2 to look at...It's loaned out...

I want to beef up the avenger encounter and dalies. Rolling twice for an at-will is cool enough, when you think about it.


I also want to talk about many of the later released/published classes. Many seem to have not been thought through to level 30. Like the Seeker. And the Psion. I already had to change the psion because I have a player approaching level 21 as a psion...and he's just getting too weak compared to the rest of the party. Thankfully, I foresaw this, lol. Not so much by adding more damage for him, but...A fun touch. Dominating for for an encounter. Either no save, or a penalized save. Yeah, he does that now. And he isn't doing more dice damage than anyone else in combat, either. It's fun; my friend gets to wrest a monster of his choice from my control and 'DM' it himself, through the use of his actions. But, now it's for more than one turn. Like a F*ing Psion should.

(we're coming to a close on the Dark Sun campaign I started about a year ago. I'm making one last huge thing...Freeing a city-state...But not coming close to defeating The Dragon...) Then, that's it. We'll probably do a steampunk thing next. With Cthulhu. Cthulhu Stretching and playing with 4e's rule-set as much as we feel we can.
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PostSubject: Re: Avengers Visualized   Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:05 am

If avengers didn't have the whole unarmored thing going, I'd say this made a pretty good one. Course, you can just give it a flavor handwave.







taken from a pretty cool page

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