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 Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?

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Garthanos
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PostSubject: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:59 am

I have a ironic feeling that even 4e made our martial heros too mundane...

There are numerous legends in archery such as Hiawatha being able to fire 10 arrows in the air before the first hits the ground for instance and speed tests purported for the Saracens that had 3 arrows in the air at once fired at 69 yard targets. A modern archer the world record holder Lars Anderson has duplicated both legends (actually beat Hiawatha with 11 arrows) - his technique I would describe is a quiverless - short draw method. He uses a normal short recurve bow and he can fire 10 arrows accurately in just under 5 seconds his arrows though only target arrows not realistic war arrows can still penetrate real chain armor and he can quick fire while jumping or falling from heights like off the back of a horse or just plain moving sideways at a trot speed backwards and at moving targets.




How would you build hiawatha?

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:05 pm

Realizing this thread didnt have a direction for inspiring response - how about a touch more and a Question?

The point of this thought is broader than the effectiveness of archery, and it relates to how I see 4e. Though in theory 4e put enablers in place for martial to be awesome and it did put in hooks from implying martial power can have quasi-magical intensity to giving it dailies (which in D&D land gets confused with spells - though that has little relation to myth), but I always felt it never reached that goal individual abilities got close.

What are your favorite abilities which emphasize Martial Awesome?


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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:01 am

A round is 6 seconds. A level 1 archer ranger can twin strike twice on an AP and do 4 arrows in 6 seconds. A level 3 ranger mc rogue can make that 5 by adding snap-shot. At level 9, jarring salvo puts us up to 6 arrows in a turn 1/day. A level 11 ranger is APing every encounter due to battlefield archer. At 15, we add confounding arrows to put us at 7 arrows in a turn. At 17, we're at 6/encounter, 7 once per day due to pounding barrage. At 23, we're at 7 every encounter due to manticore's volley. At level 27 we can attack every creature within 250' (using a greatbow of long distance) in less than two seconds, every encounter. If that's not heroic and martial and awesome, I'm not sure what is. And the capstone is Five Missile Dance, which allows us to put 9 arrows into the same target in under 6 seconds.

This only counting on turn stuff - not to mention stuff like disruptive strike.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:30 am

Fardiz wrote:
If that's not heroic and martial and awesome, I'm not sure what is.
Point taken the base line might not be that awesome but it isnt going to be or stay so base with all the extra factors coming in to play as you advance.
Perhaps - The other side of this is that some times even "realistic" is awesome.

And that until epic even the ranger isnt actually doing much that cant be done by very real people.

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“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:14 pm

These real people are extremely rare. And they aren't doing it in the middle of a melee with their very lives at stake.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:08 pm

Fardiz wrote:
These real people are extremely rare.
Sounds like PCs to me...

The saracens and their speed tests where for archers who trained their whole lives... and the hunters of plains (featuring hiawatha) were similarly.

Based on Lars stuff learning the kind of technique which brings about that speed also results on being able to do it in very imbalanced and off the cuff ways... exactly what you need to be able to do it in stress.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:34 pm

A full draw with quivered arrows looks to be about 1.5 seconds or 4 arrows a round if uninterfered with, establishes a bit of a max. (but under attack - ie if the archer has an enemy actually attacking them that round reducing that to half might make sense or reducing to hit by 5 but very close to the normal ranger twin strike) : When I was younger I did some accuracy tests with me and my brother and using hurled objects... if we were both actively attacking and defending our accuracy was half of when we were attacking without defending.

Half draws and arrows in hand like lars is doing (and which is featured in lots of old art ) would allow distinctly more.

You could split it up and say Half draws could I think be allowed reduce attack damage.... in trade for more shots...  Unquivered arrows in combination allow still more. The faster unquivered arrow technique leaves you better prepared to defend and move so that impact might be less

but wont get that huge speed boost 3x except in combination with the short draw.

The thing is in D&D the half draw should actually reduce to hit at least against heavily armored enemy.

One of my ideas is for Tactical choices about how you use the bow...  but also noting things like a barrage  of 8 or nine arrows isnt actually "Anime" or some extremely blown out of porportion thing.

Because reality is unrealistic.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:37 am

Too much simulation. You can fluff twin strike how ever you like. You could fire 12 arrows for all the rules care.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:10 am

Heh and indeed I have. But some times I work through the sim think partly just to get a grip on how fantastic or in this case how not so extremely fantastic, our fantasy gaming is.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:07 am

Fardiz wrote:
These real people are extremely rare. And they aren't doing it in the middle of a melee with their very lives at stake.
As a previous poster said, people of extremely rare talent is basically the definition of 4E PC's, but I'd like to expound on that by pointing out that, per the way 4E's structure was set up, it would NOT be out of line to consider the PC's in your campaign to be the ONLY representatives of their entire class in the campaign world (i.e. there may be many warriors, but there's only one who qualifies as The Fighter, at least within living memory) and, after reaching their epic destiny, the people in ages to come will refer to the PC's same way we refer to Hercules, King Arthur and Merlin.

It really can be quite a perspective shift from previous editions and the presumption that your Fighter was just one of many fighters in the campaign world. Instead NPC's don't even get stats unless you fight them and even then they're likely to just use monster stats, not those of a fully realized PC.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:39 pm

Chris24601 wrote:
As a previous poster said, people of extremely rare talent is basically the definition of 4E PC's, but I'd like to expound on that by pointing out that, per the way 4E's structure was set up, it would NOT be out of line to consider the PC's in your campaign to be the ONLY representatives of their entire class in the campaign world (i.e. there may be many warriors, but there's only one who qualifies as The Fighter, at least within living memory) and, after reaching their epic destiny, the people in ages to come will refer to the PC's same way we refer to Hercules, King Arthur and Merlin.

It really can be quite a perspective shift from previous editions and the presumption that your Fighter was just one of many fighters in the campaign world. Instead NPC's don't even get stats unless you fight them and even then they're likely to just use monster stats, not those of a fully realized PC.

Amazing point. The bit I bolded is almost literally what I tell players at the start of any game. I essentially copy that notion straight from Apocalypse World (or Dungeon World). Did you see it there as well? They make that particular distinction very clear in the game rules. D&D 4e does it less so but I think it's implicit. When players start to think about their characters as being THE Fighter or THE Wizard, it really does a number on their perspective, or so I've noticed in my own experience.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:39 am

Following through on the implied specialness of the PCs *which isnt something new
is on my list of what makes 4e... well 4e.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:14 am

Have you ever tried out the hunter class? They can shoot 9 arrows per round, at-will, with only a minor penalty.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:19 am

itaav wrote:
Have you ever tried out the hunter class? They can shoot 9 arrows per round, at-will, with only a minor penalty.
heh no but interesting to hear... via what ability?

It does seem that controller effects might indeed be what barrages of snap shots are most targeted for.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:24 am

Rapid shot, which is part of the expert archer class feature.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:33 am

At-will even, Gonna call that one sweet.  Might need one cornucopia quiver... or magic arrow with a returning enchantment.

More specifically I think that puts a quenchquiver weapon or endless quiver on the wish list for that class.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:40 am

Dunno, I have actually never run into a DM who kept track of ammunition.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:48 am

Nods a quiver of 20 arrow if somebody is doing 4 ... 3 and 2 around and then recovers them after the battle not tracking seems reasonable... if you are sometimes doing 9? The temptation to get gritty about it rears its head.

Similar to how you could give every spell cheap components and never track them but when those components start looking like ritual components with real prices you end up wanting to pay attention.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:08 am

Area burst 1 (effectively). So it's much more likely to be 2-3 monsters, it also takes a penalty to hit for the pleasure. The seeker also has real area burst weapon powers (though tend to use thrown weapons instead).

I think someone worked out that an archer ranger using twin strike would spend only about 50 gold pieces across 30 levels on unmagical ammo. So small change after first level. Keep an eye on magic ammo, no point bothering about mundane. This isn't 3.5e Razz


Last edited by Fardiz on Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:10 am

The funny thing about rapid shot is that if you include yourself in the burst, you have an actual chance of shooting yourself! How would that be possible?  confused 
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:12 am

itaav wrote:
The funny thing about rapid shot is that if you include yourself in the burst, you have an actual chance of shooting yourself! How would that be possible?  confused 

Ever heard of shooting yourself in the foot? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:13 am

I should have seen that one coming...  Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:03 am

itaav wrote:
The funny thing about rapid shot is that if you include yourself in the burst, you have an actual chance of shooting yourself! How would that be possible?  confused 

Just flavor it- An arrow snap and splinters embedded in your cheek, you swung around quickly for one of the shot and the bowstring stripped some skin off your arm, you stepped back to get a better line on a shot and twisted your ankle...

TjD
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:07 am

Fardiz wrote:
Area burst 1 (effectively). So it's much more likely to be 2-3 monsters, it also takes a penalty to hit for the pleasure. The seeker also has real area burst weapon powers (though tend to use thrown weapons instead).
Yes 2-3 will be typical... though aoe are fun when you an arrange to channel more enemies in to those small areas.

Fardiz wrote:

I think someone worked out that an archer ranger using twin strike would spend only about 50 gold pieces across 30 levels on unmagical ammo. So small change after first level. Keep an eye on magic ammo, no point bothering about mundane. This isn't 3.5e Razz

The money part is definitely inconsequential.

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“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Legends Prove Real - Martial Too Mundane?   Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:09 pm

Durriken wrote:
itaav wrote:
The funny thing about rapid shot is that if you include yourself in the burst, you have an actual chance of shooting yourself! How would that be possible?  confused 

Just flavor it- An arrow snap and splinters embedded in your cheek, you swung around quickly for one of the shot and the bowstring stripped some skin off your arm, you stepped back to get a better line on a shot and twisted your ankle...

TjD

Have had an arrows nock break on me... nasty would not have been fun in a dangerous situation.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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