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 How do you feel about 5e?

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Felorn Gloryaxe
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PostSubject: How do you feel about 5e?   Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:32 pm

I don't want to shine too much of a spotlight on 5e here at 4ENCLAVE... But I do want to know what you guys think about the game so far? I know I'm buying the core rulebooks, but don't plan on ever leaving 4e. I definitely plan on lifting a few rules here and there out of the game and dropping them into 4e. Like advantage and disadvantage. And I honestly don't think it's a bad edition. It may not have been exactly what I wanted, but, it is definitely playable in my books. And I thought that is was rather cool that they are bringing back Dragonborn, and Tieflings as core races.

So what are your thoughts? Will you be buying 5e? Will you play in 5e games?

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:03 am

If I want to play a retroclone, I will go with Labyrinth Lord or Dark Dungeons.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:06 pm

I won't be buying the books at all. I downloaded the free basic rules just so I could take a look at the system. And it is definitely D&D. There are classes and races and attack rolls and AC and spells and all of that. And I'm sure that it will provide all kinds of fun and excitement to those who play it.

For myself, having played every edition of D&D from BECMI, AD&D 1e, 2e (even what some call 2.5), 3.0 & 3.5, and (of course) 4E, none of these editions present a rule set that I enjoy as much as 4E. And the newest set (we've all decided it is called 5e, right?) really feels like an earlier edition of the game to me. Even the look of the PDF of the basic rules has that "1e/2e" look to me.

It is highly likely that I'll learn to play the game by the 5e rules (I'll have to be ready for 5.5 and 6e in another 3 years, yeah?) but I won't run any of my games with them.

But I am definitely looking forward to products that aren't edition specific (pre-painted minis and such) that will start being released again now that there is an official D&D game on the market again.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:25 am

"Popping my head out of my lair"

There is a bunch of stuff I like, and a bunch of stuff I don't.  Not against playing it, but I don't think I will be getting overly excited about it based on what I have seen.  Although, I am working on a format to convert the adventures they will be releasing over to 4E, since they will be starting with adventures on my RPG home turf (Forgotten Realms).
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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:55 am

thanson02 wrote:
... Although, I am working on a format to convert the adventures they will be releasing over to 4E, since they will be starting with adventures on my RPG home turf (Forgotten Realms).

This is cool. It is also kind of humourous to me because there have been countless articles recently about converting older adventures to 5e and you're going the other way. That's awesome!

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:58 am

skwyd42 wrote:

But I am definitely looking forward to products that aren't edition specific (pre-painted minis and such) that will start being released again now that there is an official D&D game on the market again.

This for sure.

Once I've purchased the core rulebooks (for the collector in me) these type books will likely be the only ones I will buy.

Though I have read through the Basic Rules and I have to say, it's an improvement over 3.x... But I'm not so sure about 4e.

That's my greatest weakness about 4e though. Everytime I try and take a step back from it, even temporarily, I end up getting flustered and come running back to it... I swear 4e, and stockholm syndrome have a lot in common.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:07 am

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:

Though I have read through the Basic Rules and I have to say, it's an improvement over 3.x... But I'm not so sure about 4e.

The Basic Rules of 5e may be an improvement over 3.x, *maybe*. I haven't played 5e at all so I can't really say for sure. I'm betting the main advantage it has is the lack of all of the surplus material in all of the supplemental books. And I imagine that will change. But I don't think it is an improvement over 4E at all.

I've told people lots of times that I do agree that there are some really great things about pretty much every edition I've every played (which is all of them except for "OD&D"). But 4E put together my favourite set of rules. Not that it is without faults, obviously. But to me, the faults it does have are more easily managed than in any other edition.

Essentially, for me, 4E put together a fantastically robust tactical combat system with a skill/action resolution system that is pared down enough that it doesn't get in my way. So it works just the way I want a system to work!

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:09 pm

skwyd42 wrote:
thanson02 wrote:
... Although, I am working on a format to convert the adventures they will be releasing over to 4E, since they will be starting with adventures on my RPG home turf (Forgotten Realms).

This is cool. It is also kind of humourous to me because there have been countless articles recently about converting older adventures to 5e and you're going the other way. That's awesome!

Actually, that might work out in my favor. If they are setting up conversions to 5E from previous editions, I might be able to work the same process backwards to get the results I am looking for. Thanks for the heads up!!
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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:22 pm

thanson02 wrote:
Actually, that might work out in my favor.  If they are setting up conversions to 5E from previous editions, I might be able to work the same process backwards to get the results I am looking for.  Thanks for the heads up!!

Yeah. You can do a search for D&D 5e conversions to see who is doing them. I've seen some people on twitter posting about it. So it will happen.

I've been working on converting old 1e adventures into 4E versions of them. In most cases I haven't actually done a lot of work as my "free time" just doesn't exist anymore. And in many cases I don't do an "exact" conversion. I try to capture what I think is the "feel" of the adventure and then adapt it to fit the 4E system.

In any case, I'd love to see what you end up doing!

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:31 am

skwyd42 wrote:

I've been working on converting old 1e adventures into 4E versions of them. In most cases I haven't actually done a lot of work as my "free time" just doesn't exist anymore. And in many cases I don't do an "exact" conversion. I try to capture what I think is the "feel" of the adventure and then adapt it to fit the 4E system.

In any case, I'd love to see what you end up doing!

I understand the lack of free time thing.  My schedule is starting to open up again so I can start playing with my toys again.  Smile  We might have to swap notes once I get some solid stuff put together.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:29 am

I feel that 5e is one step forward, 2 giant leaps back. My problem is that they essentially through out the baby with the bath water (And I don't see that much bath water). There are so many evolutionary improvements made with 4e that make it a more elegant game that they total dumped.

My biggest complaint is that they threw out the "One simple rule" philosophy. With 5e you have to learn a bunch of different ways that things work, 4e had only one.

For now, I will not be buying any of the new rule books.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:36 am

Durriken wrote:
I feel that 5e is one step forward, 2 giant leaps back...

Yeah. I agree with this. When they were in design of the game, I kept hearing about "core concepts" and "boiling it down to the essential elements" and stuff like that. I think maybe they've "boiled it down" so far that they've taken out a lot of the things that have been added in to the game in the past 2 editions (3.x and 4E).

One of the problems that I saw with their design is that they seemed to be trying to make a game that everyone would enjoy. But when you try to make something that appeals to everyone, it often ends up appealing to no one at all.

Over the weekend I was up in Portland and talked to some of the owners of Rainy Day Games in Hillboro/Aloha area. Which, by the way, is a crazy-amazing-good store. And one of the employees there said that already they've seen a lot of new players come in asking about D&D and wanting to learn and play. So their D&D events calendar has filled up nicely. And, in my opinion, if this keeps bringing in new players, then that's awesome. And they can play 5e or 6e or whatever-e they want. I'm always happy to hear that more people are gaming.

I do wish, however, that 5e would have been an evolution FORWARD from 4E instead of feeling like a retro-clone/homage to 1e/2e by way of an over simplified 3.x rules engine.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:43 am

skwyd42 wrote:
I do wish, however, that 5e would have been an evolution FORWARD from 4E instead of feeling like a retro-clone/homage to 1e/2e by way of an over simplified 3.x rules engine.

It would have been nice, no lie.  Although there were elements in previous editions that I feel they should have brought forward to 4E that they didn't (magic system was a little too gutted flavor-wise for my liking.  Good thing I fixed that with my house rules. Very Happy )  But it is what it is, and like you said, if it gets people in the door and active in their local game stores, even better.

And I haven't had a chance to see the new Player's Guide, but one of the previews I saw was for the Warlock class and flavor-wise, it sounds almost identical to the Warlock in 4E, so there is some of 4E in there, just not sure how much at this point.

Note:  I noticed they just released the updated Basic Rules for the players and the Basic Rules for DM.  And the DM rules are SUPER BASIC, as in basic monster adjustments and basic encounter building.  I am thinking that I might have sit down and take a deep look into how encounter building works between 4E and 5E for my adventure conversions, especially after the DM Guide is published.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:48 am

thanson02 wrote:
skwyd42 wrote:
I do wish, however, that 5e would have been an evolution FORWARD from 4E instead of feeling like a retro-clone/homage to 1e/2e by way of an over simplified 3.x rules engine.

It would have been nice, no lie.  Although there were elements in previous editions that I feel they should have brought forward to 4E that they didn't (magic system was a little too gutted flavor-wise for my liking.  Good thing I fixed that with my house rules. :D )  But it is what it is, and like you said, if it gets people in the door and active in their local game stores, even better.

And I haven't had a chance to see the new Player's Guide, but one of the previews I saw was for the Warlock class and flavor-wise, it sounds almost identical to the Warlock in 4E, so there is some of 4E in there, just not sure how much at this point.

Note:  I noticed they just released the updated Basic Rules for the players and the Basic Rules for DM.  And the DM rules are SUPER BASIC, as in basic monster adjustments and basic encounter building.  I am thinking that I might have sit down and take a deep look into how encounter building works between 4E and 5E for my adventure conversions, especially after the DM Guide is published.

Yeah, I'm thinking that I will need to spend some time getting into the deeper workings of 5e. Invariably I'll have to know something about it as some point. I know that for the foreseeable future I will be running 4E games. But I've got this gut feeling that someday the group I have will go their separate ways (they always do). And eventually I'll probably decide that I want to step into the 5e ring. Although, given the ever-shorter time frames between editions, maybe 6e will be out when I stop playing 4E.

And also, there could be a lot of good material to use from 5e as far as story and such, so learning it enough to "convert back" might be worthwhile.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:45 pm

skwyd42 wrote:
And also, there could be a lot of good material to use from 5e as far as story and such, so learning it enough to "convert back" might be worthwhile.

Actually, I was looking at the 5E DM Basic Rules and I noticed a element called "Legendary Creature's Lair".  It works like an extension of the creature where they can effect their environment to make the players efforts to defeat them harder.  It reminded me a little bit of Wondrous Lair Items that they introduced in Adventures Vault 2, but for monsters to use in gameplay.  This is an item that I have never seen in 4E (not to say it isn't there in some random article that I missed) and as it is written, it looks like I can just use it as is and drop into a adventure or reskin it for my uses.  So there are some cool things.
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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:53 pm

thanson02 wrote:
 So there are some cool things.

Yeah, I've been using the Advantage mechanic in various circumstances in my 4E games for a while now. And the players really enjoy rolling two dice and taking the highest more than just getting a +2.

I've actually expanded that mechanic for Combat Advantage and it has turned in to a crazy-status-fest at times.

The way I work it is that if you get Combat Advantage on an attack, it is a +2 bonus to your attack roll as normal. However, if you would have CA for more than one reason (for example flanking a prone target) you get the +2 AND you roll 2 dice and take the highest. But I've gone a bit further than that. For each additional mechanic-based reason that the character would get CA (dazed, prone, flanking, etc.) beyond the 2nd, they get an additional die to roll. In all cases, they only get to take the highest. But the players love it because the Leader is dropping effects to make enemies grant CA, the Defender is dropping them prone, then one of the Strikers is dazing the target while setting up for the flank. The end result is that the other Striker moves in for that flank and gets to roll 4d20 and take the highest, along with a +2 for the initial CA. Add to that the bonus this Striker gets for charging and you have a ridiculously high chance of hitting. And my players don't make highly optimized characters (the main Striker is a Vampire class, go figure!).

But they have a whole lot of fun with that, so it is definitely worth it!

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:18 am

The 5e MM previews that are circulating now have finally made my mind up. I won't be playing or DMing 5e. The artwork is (mostly) awesome, but the game itself is just a giant pile of all the things I hated about pre-4e D&D.

I've said it before, but 13th Age is my 'D&D Next'.

EDIT: And, yeah, I realise this makes me sound exactly like the 3.X fans who ran off to Pathfinder when 4e came out. Given how successful Pathfinder has turned out to be, I'm fine with that. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:12 am

The new artwork is pretty awesome. I also like how they are handling the marketing and development of the new edition (so far). But I agree that I won't be switching as it is, more or less, a previous edition of D&D.

For me, 4E is my D&D Next. Maybe it's because I only get to game once every other weekend, but I have so many things I want to do with 4E. I've probably only seen about half of the character classes in play ever. I've never run an Epic Tier campaign. I still have several stories I'd like to tell. And honestly, the 4E system has been the absolute best for providing me with the things I want to do.

I think I ranted about this in another post on these forums. But 1e got about 12 years (1977 to 1989). And 2e got almost the same, with about 11 years (1989 to 2000). I realize that from like 1995 forward TSR was not really doing anything for the game, but if you wanted D&D, that was the latest edition. And honestly, there was so little difference in the core of 1e and 2e, you might as well have considered them the same game. I never had to tell any of my players that we were playing 2e in the campaign. We were just playing D&D (I know, technically AD&D, but you get the idea). Then in 2000, WotC came out with 3.0 and in 2003 the 3.5 revisions were released. If you lump those together (much like 1e and 2e can be lumped together), 3rd edition got 8 years.

The announcement was in 2007, but the first books were released in 2008 for 4E. But only 4 years later, WotC announced that they were going to do the whole "open playtest" for the next edition of
D&D. And I thought it was hilarious that they refused to simply call it 5e at that time even though that is pretty much what everyone calls it now that it is out. But the point is that support for 4E lasted from 2008 to 2012. The online magazines did keep up with some 4E stuff in to 2013, but it was minimal.

And now, with this highly anticipated and well-accepted release of 5e, I wonder how long it will last. Will it get more than the 4 years that 4E got? The "death" of 4E was said to be due to various things. Edition wars, system bloat, over complexity, and so on were all reasons I've read that WotC wanted to remake D&D. There were others I'm sure. But what I wonder is how much of the reason came from the corporate overlords. I remember that when Hasbro bought WotC during the 3.x, WotC had this breakneck schedule of book release. I think it was at least 1 new rule book per month just for the "core" system. And it seemed like there was 1 new Forgotten Realms or Eberron book per month as well. I've read stuff online (of various reliability) that said that Hasbro was pushing WotC to keep their numbers up by having a steady stream of publications. So it wasn't about producing a good game, it was about putting out a continuous stream of revenue.

4E seemed to be following a similar model. There were regular releases of books, but also there were the "tie-in" products of the games and miniatures and so on. It seemed to be about products, not about the game. And it didn't succeed very well.

I know that the Pathfinder game added to the issue. Honestly, Paizo was genius for simply taking the existing 3.x game and saying, "Hey, you know that game that you have all the books for and already know how to play? We're still making material for that. But we've tweaked it slightly so that it can be called a different game." Paizo handed a game that was essentially the fraternal twin to 3.x D&D to all of the gamers out there. And many of them said, "Cool! I don't have to shell out cash for an entirely new set of core books!" and instead shelled out cash for an entirely new line of supplemental books. And that's fine. We're gamers and we're going to spend our money somewhere. Paizo is basically the smartest opportunist out there as far as I can tell.

But anyway, here we are with this shiny new edition of D&D in front of us. It has all kinds of awesome art and is making some great social statements and it is generally loved by the teeming millions (to steal a phrase from another favourite website of mine). And all I can think is "I wonder how long until 6e is announced."

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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:40 pm

First post here! Cool Long story short, I've been playing D&D off and on for 30 plus years. I did not get into 4E mainly due to financial reasons at the time; boring real life stuff. In the last year I have bought quite a collection of 4E stuff from an unsatisfied co-worker. I'm really intrigued and want to at least play one campaign of 4E to give it a decent test run.

On to the topic at hand - I have the Starter set and the free Basic rules downloaded. My impression is that the rules are like an alternate universe version of 3E/3.5E with some extra legacy stuff thrown into the mix. I haven't bought the core rule books yet but I plan on it after our house hunting is complete.


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PostSubject: Re: How do you feel about 5e?   Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:33 pm

Semi-Retired Gamer wrote:
First post here! Cool Long story short, I've been playing D&D off and on for 30 plus years.  I did not get into 4E mainly due to financial reasons at the time; boring real life stuff.  In the last year I have bought quite a collection of 4E stuff from an unsatisfied co-worker.  I'm really intrigued and want to at least play one campaign of 4E to give it a decent test run.  

On to the topic at hand - I have the Starter set and the free Basic rules downloaded. My impression is that the rules are like an alternate universe version of 3E/3.5E with some extra legacy stuff thrown into the mix.  I haven't bought the core rule books yet but I plan on it after our house hunting is complete.


Welcome to the forum!!  I have a large collection of 4E stuff and I have all 3 core books for 5E (local game store gave me a really sweet offer running AL games).  4E is a lot of fun, one of the biggest things I would suggest is to look at it like it is a completely new game.  If you expect it to be like 2nd or 3rd Edition, you might get frustrated.  Also, it is highly mechanical in focus, with giving the DM the power to add whatever story flavor they want.  So with that, it gives the DM a TON of freedom to tell the story they want to tell.  The player end might throw some folks off because they expect the mechanics to fill in the flavor, and people in the past have had a very "player vs. DM" attitude, so they might not like the idea of the DM making flavor changes to their character, but that depends on the player.  And remember, when all else fails, the answer to just about any 4E question is 42 (p. 42 in the DMG) geek

As for 5E, it plays a lot like 2nd Edition, ALOT.  What I tell folks is that if they want to get a feel for it, just pretend your playing AD&D with the skill list being your non-weapon proficiencies and the arch-types being sub classes.  That usually gets people started on the right foot and we fill the gaps as we play.
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