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 Staff of the traveler

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Verbannon
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PostSubject: Staff of the traveler   Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:58 am

One of my party members has the staff of a traveler and insists that if she is immobilized and shifts, she counts as shifting 0 and thus gets to add her +2 to teleport range to that 0 and teleport 2. I'm pretty sure she doesn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:20 pm

Verbannon wrote:
One of my party members has the staff of a traveler and insists that if she is immobilized and shifts, she counts as shifting 0 and thus gets to add her +2 to teleport range to that 0 and teleport 2. I'm pretty sure she doesn't.

You have to be able to shift to use the property. As she cannot shift while immobilized, she cannot use the property. The speed of her shift distance is irrelevant. She simply can't do it to begin with.
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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:46 pm

Yep, as stated, you can't take the Shift action while immobilized. And so the ability of the Staff would be irrelevant.

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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:00 pm

The argument made was that immobilize doesn't stop the shift action being taken, just doesn't let them shift out of the square, therefore they could shift within their square. is there a rule I can quote that states that one can't move within their square?
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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:19 pm

From PHB Page 277, PHB3 Page 221, Rules Compendium Page 232, Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale Page 123:

Immobilized

The creature can't move, unless it teleports or is pulled, pushed, or slid.

An immobilized creature can't reposition itself on the battle grid, but it's not paralyzed. It can still stand up when it's prone, pull an item from a backpack, or attack normally. It might have taken a serious, but temporary, injury to the legs, or it could be stuck to the ground by a huge cobweb.

A creature wrapped up in animated vines might be restrained instead (see below); that condition imposes more restrictions on the creature's ability to attack and defend itself. A creature that is actually paralyzed, such as by the bite of a ghoul, might be stunned rather than immobilized or restrained.

---

From PHB Page 292 and Rules Compendium Page 249:

Shift

Moving through a fierce battle is dangerous; a creature must be careful to avoid a misstep that gives a foe a chance to strike a telling blow. The way to move safely when enemies are nearby is to shift. When a creature wants to flee, the safest way to do that is to first shift away from an adjacent enemy, then walk or run.



Shift

Action: Move action.

Movement: The creature moves 1 square. (Some powers and effects allow creatures to move farther than 1 square with a shift.)

No Opportunity Actions Triggered: Unless the description of an effect says otherwise, shifting doesn't trigger opportunity actions such as opportunity attacks.

Special Movement Modes: A creature can't shift when using a movement mode that requires it to make a skill check. For instance, if it is climbing, it can't shift if it has to make an Athletics check to climb. (A creature that has a climb speed can shift while climbing.)

Because a square of difficult terrain costs 1 extra square of movement to enter, a creature can't normally shift into such a square, unless it is able to shift multiple squares or ignores the effects of difficult terrain.

---

So, from those two things, Shifting requires the character to move and being Immobilized prevents the character from moving.

I don't see any explicit wording that says "An immobilized character cannot shift", but it seems clear from these two rules.

I'd add that I don't see any instances where someone "Shifts 0". I know that forced movement (push, pull, slide) can be reduced to 0 squares. But the Shift action is specifically a Move and, like walking or running, cannot be done while Immobilized.

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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:41 am

Oh I see, in the original phb1 it said

"IMMOBILIZED IMMOBILIZED ✦ You can’t move from your space, although you can teleport and can be forced to move by a pull, a push, or a slide. "

and there is no official errata changing it. But it looks like they stealth changed it later.
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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:31 pm

She is arguing now that it is the same as moving 0 with a stealth to become hidden. Since you can 'move 0' with a stealth check, burning a move action to just hide in place. That you can do the same thing, burn a move action to just shift 0 and teleport even while immobilized.

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2739081

Q:  Can I "move 0" and become Hidden?
A:  Yes, if you used a Move Action.  Same with standing up - any Move Action, or any action that lets you Move.

Thus she says if you can move 0 to stealth then you must be able to shift 0 to stealth. And that the link she used is stickied in the wizards forum so it must be true.

What argument do I use to prove her wrong?
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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:38 pm

And that movement is only leaving and entering a square therefore if you shift 0 its not movement so not stopped by immobilize but its still a legal action.
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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:46 pm

And that movement is only leaving and entering a square therefore if you shift 0 its not movement so not stopped by immobilize but its still a legal action.
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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:08 pm

Okay we've boiled it down dismissing the stealth argument. Her argument is that there is nothing in specific saying she 'can't' shift 0. That immobilize just stops movement and movement is defined as leaving a square and since she shifts 0 its not movement, but still a shift action, then it must be allowed. That she is simply using the 'shift power' and reducing the movement granted to 0.

I went to the rules compendium and found the rules on forced movement and noted that in forced movement it says you can move X squares or not move at all. Which suggests that you can't reduce granted movement to 0 instead when she tries she simply doesn't do anything at all.

What do you think now about her argument?
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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:34 am

You can only "Move 0" if you can move. While immobilized you can't move. Or shift. Hence, you couldn't "Shift 0".

It seems like the player is trying to "win" a rules discussion. Perhaps discussing with the player outside of the game table why it is such an issue might resolve things.

From what I'm reading, being immobilized prevents you from moving or shifting, even if it is a distance of 0 squares. You simply can't take the action that initiates the combination that results in the teleportation power.

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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:28 am

Maybe take a step back and ask why this is so important. Will it ruin the players fun, the fun of other player, or the fun of the DM one way or another?
I really think the discuss with the player needs to shift from the ruling itself to what the player is feeling about the situation around the ruling.

If you want to get a technical ruling, there is not such thing as "shift 0". The stealth thing is use your move action to become hidden. It is not a move, just a use of the move action. Immobilize doesn't remove your move action (ie you can still use your move action to stand up, or use it to take a second minor action), it just prevents move actions that would cause you to leave the square without teleporting. If the item triggers on movement, your player is out of luck. If the item replaces a movement with a teleport, I might give it to her.

But it might be important to the player for another reason. That might be more important than being technically right.
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PostSubject: Re: Staff of the traveler   Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:34 am

I agree 100% with Durriken!

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