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 If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?

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doctorbadwolf
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PostSubject: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:54 pm

So, I posit that had certain elements been formatted like Saga, 4e would have been more positively received.
Mostly, I imagine powers being written like Saga Force Powers/Starship Maneuvers or talents. Perhaps with talents and powers filling the same "slots", so it's easier to grab more passive "always on" stuff if you want, or go full complexity, etc. Essentially, that would have created a player powered dial of complexity, while looking and feeling more familiar for fans of older editions.

CHIA posits that Saga would have been a good basis for building 4e. I'll let him chime in with more on that.
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:35 pm

I think the multi-clasing system in Saga and 3.5e would probably not have worked in 4e. The 4e classes are much more tied to character concept and are more rigid than their counterparts in 3.5e and Saga. However, I think the system of talent trees would have worked well because it would let fighters get potentially powerful talents to make up for their lack of spells. The Force power system would also have been cool for spells, although wizards and other casters would probably get it automatically.

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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:04 pm

Not sure how 4e classes are more rigid than 3.5 classes. 3.5 classes are almost totally on rails, unless you're a spellcaster. And even then, they're about as rigid as 4e classes.

for everyone else, 4e classes are...not rigid at all.


Anyway, I wouldn't be ok with martial characters having to spend any resources at all in order to get access to things similar to saga lightsaber form powers or 4e martial powers. All classes would have to have access to a suite of powers and talents.
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:48 am

doctorbadwolf wrote:
Not sure how 4e classes are more rigid than 3.5 classes. 3.5 classes are almost totally on rails, unless you're a spellcaster. And even then, they're about as rigid as 4e classes.
Fair enough. I've never played 3.5e but that's what I had heard.

Quote :

for everyone else, 4e classes are...not rigid at all.
Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly. In 4e, class is, imo, tied much more to who you are. If I don't want to be a wizard but want to be in theWizard class, I hhave to reflavor a lot of things, much more than a similar situation in, say, Saga. Class also has a closer connection to what feats you can take, what weapons you can use, etc, in 4e.

Quote :

Anyway, I wouldn't be ok with martial characters having to spend any resources at all in order to get access to things similar to saga lightsaber form powers or 4e martial powers. All classes would have to have access to a suite of powers and talents.
Yep.

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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:29 pm

Yeah. 3e classes were place quite heavily on rails... The only things that made characters different were chosen feats, equipment, spells, and RP stuff. Every class got the same thing at the same level. There were no real choices per level unless it came to feats, skills, or spells. You could have 2 rogues both be level 10 and other than feats, and ability scores they would be nearly the same,

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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:40 pm

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:
Yeah. 3e classes were place quite heavily on rails... The only things that made characters different were chosen feats, equipment, spells, and RP stuff. Every class got the same thing at the same level. There were no real choices per level unless it came to feats, skills, or spells. You could have 2 rogues both be level 10 and other than feats, and ability scores they would be nearly the same,

Ah, in that case I'm using the term rigid either differently or incorrectly. The vast majority of what you can do in 4e is determined by your class (and associated class feats, etc). At least, ime. Not so much in Saga.

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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:35 pm

CHIA wrote:
doctorbadwolf wrote:
Not sure how 4e classes are more rigid than 3.5 classes. 3.5 classes are almost totally on rails, unless you're a spellcaster. And even then, they're about as rigid as 4e classes.
Fair enough. I've never played 3.5e but that's what I had heard.

Quote :

for everyone else, 4e classes are...not rigid at all.
Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly. In 4e, class is, imo, tied much more to who you are. If I don't want to be a wizard but want to be in theWizard class, I hhave to reflavor a lot of things, much more than a similar situation in, say, Saga. Class also has a closer connection to what feats you can take, what weapons you can use, etc, in 4e.


4e classes are definitely more rigid than Saga classes. That's not in question.

Of course, I think Saga suffers for not choosing between classless and class based design, and instead trying for a halting midpoint between the two.

But even then, in order to speak of the rigidness of class, we must temporarily ignore multiclassing. If you ignore multi-classing, I'm not sure Saga classes are meaningfully less rigid than 4e classes. In both cases, you get a list of options to choose from at each level. In 4e, they're limited by level, in Saga they're limited by trees. In both cases you get proficiencies which you can work outside of with feats. In both cases, it's pretty trivial to use a class to play something that has nothing to do with that classes default thematic elements.

Once you consider multi-classing, saga is much more open ended, of course.

CHIA wrote:
Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:
Yeah. 3e classes were place quite heavily on rails... The only things that made characters different were chosen feats, equipment, spells, and RP stuff. Every class got the same thing at the same level. There were no real choices per level unless it came to feats, skills, or spells. You could have 2 rogues both be level 10 and other than feats, and ability scores they would be nearly the same,

Ah, in that case I'm using the term rigid either differently or incorrectly. The vast majority of what you can do in 4e is determined by your class (and associated class feats, etc). At least, ime. Not so much in Saga.

But all your talents (unless you're a force user) and most of your feats are chosen from a list determined by your class. Your attack bonus and defenses are also based on your class, as are your starting proficiencies.

How is that not "The vast majority of what you can do is determined by your class"?
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:06 pm

doctorbadwolf wrote:
CHIA wrote:
doctorbadwolf wrote:
Not sure how 4e classes are more rigid than 3.5 classes. 3.5 classes are almost totally on rails, unless you're a spellcaster. And even then, they're about as rigid as 4e classes.
Fair enough. I've never played 3.5e but that's what I had heard.

Quote :

for everyone else, 4e classes are...not rigid at all.
Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly. In 4e, class is, imo, tied much more to who you are. If I don't want to be a wizard but want to be in theWizard class, I hhave to reflavor a lot of things, much more than a similar situation in, say, Saga. Class also has a closer connection to what feats you can take, what weapons you can use, etc, in 4e.


4e classes are definitely more rigid than Saga classes. That's not in question.

Of course, I think Saga suffers for not choosing between classless and class based design, and instead trying for a halting midpoint between the two.
I have to disagree. I think the midpoint worked extremely well.

Quote :
But even then, in order to speak of the rigidness of class, we must temporarily ignore multiclassing. If you ignore multi-classing, I'm not sure Saga classes are meaningfully less rigid than 4e classes. In both cases, you get a list of options to choose from at each level. In 4e, they're limited by level, in Saga they're limited by trees. In both cases you get proficiencies which you can work outside of with feats. In both cases, it's pretty trivial to use a class to play something that has nothing to do with that classes default thematic elements.
I disagree here too. :PIn Saga, your class dosen't determine what "attacks" you use, unlike 4e. I could be a scoundrel with a heavy repeating blaster using autofire and not lose much effectiveness. I couldn't be a wizard wielding a sword as a primary weapon without compromising the PC's power, though. I think the feats in Saga are much more important than those in 4e, and have a larger part in determining your capabilities.


Quote :


CHIA wrote:
Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:
Yeah. 3e classes were place quite heavily on rails... The only things that made characters different were chosen feats, equipment, spells, and RP stuff. Every class got the same thing at the same level. There were no real choices per level unless it came to feats, skills, or spells. You could have 2 rogues both be level 10 and other than feats, and ability scores they would be nearly the same,

Ah, in that case I'm using the term rigid either differently or incorrectly. The vast majority of what you can do in 4e is determined by your class (and associated class feats, etc). At least, ime. Not so much in Saga.

But all your talents (unless you're a force user) and most of your feats are chosen from a list determined by your class. Your attack bonus and defenses are also based on your class, as are your starting proficiencies.

How is that not "The vast majority of what you can do is determined by your class"?
Because your feats are left open (despite a bonus feat list, whcih is usually quite large and you certainly get plenty of chances to pick any feat you want, regardless of the class list). A scout can use Power Blast as well as a soldier can. Short of multiclassing, no rogue will be using Wizard nova powers. Talents usualy either simply give you a bonus to an existing capability or give you something new but small. There are exceptions, of course.

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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:50 pm

A key to the presentation of 4e that might have made it far far more successful (and I am one who admits 4e was and is very successful, despite the whole Essentials/New Edition trend) is if they had not presented every Class's abilities as "Powers"

Martial Characters had Exploits, Divine had Prayers, Arcane had Spells, Psionics had Disciplines, and I forget what they called Primal powers right now, but they each had a name, if you had grouped the names not as Powers, but as 'Talents' or used the extra space in the books to clearly group the things together without needing a group name. (Powers was used as short hand, so that something referring to a 'Power' was known to affect all varieties equally)

Another thing that might have made 4e go over better with some would have been the replacement of several of the Daily Exploits with Stances...Many Stances came out later in 4e's lifespan as a supported edition (its still alive, dangit) but they would have helped as part of the initial offering. Now, I'm not an Essentials fan, I'm not saying go the 100% Essentials way, I like the decision points that each PC made as they leveled that Essentials tries to make for you, but I do think some of the Essentials approach would have been helpful.

Finally, if they had not assumed Magic Items in the leveling math, and not presented it as something you just go out to the WandMart and buy, that would have been helpful. (Also, other than Wizards, nobody else 'lost' anything for not using an Implement, or rather, they didn't gain anything automatically for having one, their powers worked with or without...the Wizard just got something extra depending on which one they chose)
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:26 pm

In addition to daily stances for martial characters, it would have been helpful to have some "talent" like options instead of powers, that could be chosen at power levels. So if you don't like martial dailies, you could pick a stance, which isn't as "bad", or a talent. Between the two, you could have clases that look more "e-style" or more like previous ed classes, with that dial being entirely in the player's hand.
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:33 pm

yes, you could choose Talents that were weaker than Daily powers, but gave additional Encounter or At-Will options, or even enhanced what they already had, working in tandem with what they currently use.
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:02 pm

exactly. I've no problems with having mostly at will and encounter characters alongside full AEDU characters, it was just the restrictive nature of the two sets of class designs that annoyed me.
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:14 pm

I would have liked to seen some more source books for the Essentials Classes. Like another Martial Power for Essentials, and an Arcane, and Divine Power 2...


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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:15 pm

yeah, I would have liked to have had them put out the entire 2nd set of Powers books Myself, and they could have supported both Classic and Essentials quite easily. Of course, I was one that was looking forward to new PHBs every year wanting to see 10 total power sources in the game like the initial promise...I thought that was an ambitious, but worthy goal
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:27 pm

More power sources would have been awesome.

A fully fleshed Shadow power source would have been a nice consolation prize, though. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:22 pm

doctorbadwolf wrote:
More power sources would have been awesome.

A fully fleshed Shadow power source would have been a nice consolation prize, though. Razz

+1 Indeed, as it was, personally, I found the Shadows book rather disappointing...but then, I'm not one for playing Vampires as a class so much in D&D...I think they could have gone another route and made some really interesting Shadow Classes though
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:29 am

A real shadow class, with a witch doctor ish variant on the shaman (of a full new class) that used life drain auras and controllish leader stuff like the bard, but with a darker tone, and either summons or a class feature pet.

And a Blackguard that doesn't feel like it was written by one guy, with limited oversight to make sure the cool ideas worked as intended, and a full update for the Assassin class, with a Shade Form that boosts Shrouds, and reworked power math (and just new at wills, honestly), alongside the executioner, which is also really cool, and a binder that's either got some actual kick in it's class features, or better powers, or is just a whole class instead of a subclass, and hexblade weapon rules that don't need houseruling to work, and...bleh.

Vampire...I agree with the decision to make it a class. I just wish that class wasn't so bloody terrible at everything.
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:38 am

Agreed.

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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:45 am

doctorbadwolf wrote:
Vampire ... bloody terrible at everything.
I see what you did there.

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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:56 am

Duskweaver wrote:
doctorbadwolf wrote:
Vampire ... bloody terrible at everything.
I see what you did there.
lol! 

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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:09 pm

I belong in a punitentiary.
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PostSubject: Re: If 4e had looked/felt more like Saga?    Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:44 am

Shocked 

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