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 Is 4e getting better in it's death?

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Felorn Gloryaxe
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PostSubject: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:45 pm

Is 4e getting better in it death? I've noticed that 4e is really getting more rounded out as an RPG as the focus has shifted toward Next. The Dungeon and Dragon magazine quality has really increased. They been putting out really good lore and excellent mechanics in their Unearthed Arcana. Just recently they put out rules in issue 425 that I've been dying to see: Tripping, Fumble, Injuries, Disarm, and Sundering. Though the amount of info has decreased in one given issue I feel like the quality has skyrocketed. Not to mention that I've seen 4e gaining popularity in the past year with not only new people but older gamer's as well.

What are your thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:05 pm

I have to agree. They've gone from pumping out crappy lore and crunch to filling a lot of 4e's holes.

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:18 pm

I've generally enjoyed the content released for 4E, especially the Unearthed Arcana. I'm not really sure about "better"... I'm thinking more like "being completed", because it looks like it's getting a lot of stuff that technically makes it work to the same degree as 3.5E, without the inherent imbalances of 3.x at the baseline (not that there still aren't imbalances in 4E, just none of the stuff like CoDzilla or Pun-Pun).
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:54 pm

Yeah Unearthed Arcana was the main reason I even subscribed to DDi. I can't wait till next Months issue. It is bringing more skill options to the game. Which will all but rule my homebrewed one I've been working on out but oh well Very Happy 

With all these optional rules it seems like 4e is doing a better job with modularity than Next is.

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:37 pm

I still can't believe that it took this long to get trip and disarm and stuff into the system.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:08 am

Surely I can't be the only one who thinks those new 'action options' in Dragon 425 are ridiculously bad? Suspect

Trip and Overrun lack keywords, so will almost never hit past low heroic (at level 11 they will both be at -5 to hit relative to your actual attack powers, even if you're Str-primary). Nobody ever uses Grab or Bull Rush except at low heroic, for the same reason. So now we have another two equally useless 'options'.

Disarm is actually non-functional. Its range is meaningless because it lacks the weapon keyword.

Sunder is the only one that's actually worth using at all ever.

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:08 pm

The thing is, I don't really think 4e is dead. It may not get the full support that it currently enjoys, but WoTC are already selling PDF versions of 4e books on their website--along with books from all earlier editions, as well.

What WoTC should do, IMO, is put the rules for all version under the OGL, then focus on creating and selling adventures, with versions for each edition. Make Character Builder, Monster Builder, and Virtual Table for all editions, as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:14 am

Duskweaver wrote:
Surely I can't be the only one who thinks those new 'action options' in Dragon 425 are ridiculously bad? Suspect

Trip and Overrun lack keywords, so will almost never hit past low heroic (at level 11 they will both be at -5 to hit relative to your actual attack powers, even if you're Str-primary). Nobody ever uses Grab or Bull Rush except at low heroic, for the same reason. So now we have another two equally useless 'options'.

Disarm is actually non-functional. Its range is meaningless because it lacks the weapon keyword.

Sunder is the only one that's actually worth using at all ever.

I didn't know keywords were so important... I obviously don't know much about power design. Perhaps you should start a 4e 101 thread on the crunchy bits that make 4e run. I would actually find it cool if someone did that. I know more about the d20 parts about the system (DC's, feats, etc.) Not as much on the exclusively 4e part, like keywords.

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:19 pm

Felorn Gloryaxe wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
Surely I can't be the only one who thinks those new 'action options' in Dragon 425 are ridiculously bad? :suspect:

Trip and Overrun lack keywords, so will almost never hit past low heroic (at level 11 they will both be at -5 to hit relative to your actual attack powers, even if you're Str-primary). Nobody ever uses Grab or Bull Rush except at low heroic, for the same reason. So now we have another two equally useless 'options'.

Disarm is actually non-functional. Its range is meaningless because it lacks the weapon keyword.

Sunder is the only one that's actually worth using at all ever.

I didn't know keywords were so important... I obviously don't know much about power design. Perhaps you should start a 4e 101 thread on the crunchy bits that make 4e run. I would actually find it cool if someone did that. I know more about the d20 parts about the system (DC's, feats, etc.) Not as much on the exclusively 4e part, like keywords.

The only big reason keywords are so important is because of the way feats, items and features are intrinsically linked to the use of keywords to function. A Bull rush, for example, doesn't scale well into late tiers of play because there is no weapon or implement keyword to grant the user the scaling +1 to +6 bonus to the attack roll for the action accordingly. Much of this sort of stuff is easy to rectify with house ruling, but without it there are many options lacking due to this structure.

I use the inherent bonus rules to buff ALL attacks in my home games. and turned all of the racial and non weapon/implement type of attack powers (like bull rush and grab) into a innate +2 bonus to the roll. It's all worked wonderfully since. We still see things like bull rushes and non class specific grab attacks even in late game, so I'm quite interested to see what the action options can offer my group.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:44 pm

Definitely.

Also, look at who is writing for 4E now: Chris Perkins and the team he supervises. These are guys who actually like 4E and use it in their home games.

That wasn't the case when Mike Mearls and Rob Schwalb et al were more involved with 4E. The best thing about Next is that it's left the further development of 4E in the hands of those who really like and grok the system.

In short, we won't be seeing Pyramid of Shadows again....
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:37 pm

So of course I quit my sub awhile back.

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One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:20 pm

Garthanos wrote:
So of course I quit my sub awhile back.
Just grab a 1 month-er on December and grab what you missed then :)
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:59 pm


Them months are bad ones for spare change... Sad 

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One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:42 pm

Doubt that DDI is going away before 5e comes out though, so there should be a window before it's all gone
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:52 pm

I just wonder how much notice we will be give of the tools being cancelled.

And I do expect them to be cancelled.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:19 am

Track record would say none. There was a slew of folks still waiting for the digital table to be released months after it was canceled.

I've been busy copying tons of stuff from it to my hard drive in anticipation for the cessation of DDI. It makes it a bit easier that they have chosen to not update it in a few months XD
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:26 am

I know that WotC cops a fair bit of flack, but it really makes sense when you consider the track record of broken promises and the appalling lack of communication with its customer base.

Oh well, at least they gave us 4E. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:53 am

Yup. 4e was/is still a treasure. An under appreciated treasure but a treasure nonetheless. I really need to get that Offline Compendium set up...

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:59 am

Yeah, me too.

That looks like a job for this weekend.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:33 am

Where does one get the offline compendium.

For that matter, what content is in it?
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4e getting better in it's death?   Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:41 am

It's a ripped version of the online compendium.
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