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 Fill in the gaps

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svendj
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PostSubject: Fill in the gaps   Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:50 am

I feel 4E still has some mechanical gaps to fill. Some necessary ones, some to fill out a cycle, some because why not. A couple of examples:

- Battleminds need an MBA and other defender powers besides Lightning Rush and Lodestone Lure.
- Knight and Berserker hybrid
- Additional Blackguard vices
- Ways for E-strikers to meet striker benchmarks (30/60/90 damage per round, and an encounter nova that kills a standard monster on average)
- Additional Sentinel seasons
- Support for newer races

What I'm interested in, and what I hope this forum can help with, is filling these mechanical gaps. In other words, let's produce more content! Are people interested in helping out with this?

I already have an idea for a way to make the Vampire an actual striker, which I'll post in another thread soon to get the ball rolling.
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ToeSama
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PostSubject: Re: Fill in the gaps   Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:11 pm

Considering I've been rebuilding quite a few aspects of the game for my table, I can throw down on this. It will definitely help with my own work too Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Fill in the gaps   Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:39 am

I'd be happy to try and stat out anything you might need.

That said I've not had any problems with the scout/slayer/hexblade hitting the dpr targets you mentioned (my level eight scout is hitting around 31 dpr with my at-wills (EDIT: forgot to account for hit rate against an even level monster when I said about 40 dpr) and a level 17 slayer in another game is easily the biggest hitter in the party (I've seen him dish out nearly 200 damage in a single turn with an action point) so I'm not quite certain what needs to be added to them.

By the same token, 30/60/90 is a LOT higher than any numbers I've heard from the WotC CharOps boards. 20/40/60 damage per round at levels 10/20/30 with at-wills is the benchmark I've heard bandied about for striker damage on CharOps.

Here's a WotC CharOps discussion on it for reference...

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svendj
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PostSubject: Re: Fill in the gaps   Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:18 am

Chris24601 wrote:
That said I've not had any problems with the scout/slayer/hexblade hitting the dpr targets you mentioned (my level eight scout is hitting around 31 dpr with my at-wills (EDIT: forgot to account for hit rate against an even level monster when I said about 40 dpr) and a level 17 slayer in another game is easily the biggest hitter in the party (I've seen him dish out nearly 200 damage in a single turn with an action point) so I'm not quite certain what needs to be added to them.
When I said E-strikers I was referring more to classes like the Vampire and the Blackguard. It's true that the classes you mention can manage fine. But most E-strikers, apart from the Slayer and Scout, also have nova problems.

Chris24601 wrote:
By the same token, 30/60/90 is a LOT higher than any numbers I've heard from the WotC CharOps boards. 20/40/60 damage per round at levels 10/20/30 with at-wills is the benchmark I've heard bandied about for striker damage on CharOps.

Here's a WotC CharOps discussion on it for reference...

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Thanks, I might've remembered wrong. OTOH, those numbers are more than 4 years old. Optimization has matured, so it could well be that the numbers have increased by now.

Another good rule of thumb for at-will DPR benchmarks is:

- Minimum: kill a standard in 4 rounds
- Optimized: kill a standard in 3 rounds
- Overpowered: kill a standard in 2 rounds
- Broken: kill a standard each round
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Garthanos
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PostSubject: Re: Fill in the gaps   Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:28 pm

svendj wrote:

Another good rule of thumb for at-will DPR benchmarks is:

- Minimum: kill a standard in 4 rounds
- Optimized: kill a standard in 3 rounds
- Overpowered: kill a standard in 2 rounds
- Broken: kill a standard each round
I like rule of thumbs that are translate-able and approachable like that.

Do they have something like that for Defenders and other roles?

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“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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cyvaris
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PostSubject: Re: Fill in the gaps   Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:08 pm

Those striker benchmark numbers may be "out dated", but remember Monster HP totals have come down now as well. So that sort of evens out.

Things I think need attention

General to start, everything from PHB 3 needs support

More focused
Runepriest-More support in all ways (feats, powers, Paragon Paths)
Artificer-More support in all ways (feats, powers, Paragon Paths)
Seeker-More support in all ways (feats, powers, Paragon Paths)
Sorcerer-A handful of good Paragon Paths
Warlock-A few Paragon Paths for specific pacts (Infernal and Sorc King mostly)


For now that's what I would add to the list of "things that need some gaps filled."
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PostSubject: Re: Fill in the gaps   Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:36 am

Rune Priest patch I had considered was allowing them to be considered a Cleric for free.

In a similar vein I think some flexibility like opening existing Paragon Paths to more classes doesnt hurt. Some of the restrictions seem designed to propagate the selling of books.. for instance I can take BloodMage by its current flavor and apply it very well to many many classes and reflavor a bit and give it to others.


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“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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cyvaris
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PostSubject: Re: Fill in the gaps   Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:45 am

Speaking of classes that need Paragon Paths: Avenger and Monk.

Neither have really have a "great" choice, and some of their best choices are Cleric paths. I like the idea of opening up Paragon Paths a bit. Maybe make it a choice of stats? Highest stat?
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PostSubject: Re: Fill in the gaps   Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:47 am

cyvaris wrote:
Speaking of classes that need Paragon Paths: Avenger and Monk.

Neither have really have a "great" choice, and some of their best choices are Cleric paths. I like the idea of opening up Paragon Paths a bit. Maybe make it a choice of stats? Highest stat?
Themes and Paragon Paths pretty much are the same elements I mentioned an idea of merging the two... it might involve rewriting the PP very much like they were themes.

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“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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