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 Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.

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Garthanos
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PostSubject: Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.   Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:06 am

Late in the development of 4E, some complaints about how long battles took resulted in some adjustments to the monster math... my response was ummm what a boring solution. (also the thought came up that WOTCs devs were not as innovative as the games original designers.

My ideas of how to address that relate to the concept that additional abilities are always more interesting than shifting the numbers.

In fictional sources a desperate character can dig deep and achieve wilder and more extreme effects than somebody who is still in there safe zone.

At first I thought running out of dailies and bloodied might be the "desparate condition" but perhaps
being at half on Healing surges might be more appropriate.

Even monsters might have desparation powers. Desparation powers ought to be atleast as awesome as dailies maybe even a little more so.



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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.   Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:57 am

Each power should have its own "Desperation" trigger (like to be bloodied, only X healing surges, etc.). Try and mix all of them together and you run the risk of being unable to use them commonly enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.   Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:19 am

I'm not sure I like number of healing surges as the trigger. Surges are only good in combat if you can access them. You could be down only 1 or 2 surges and the party be out of in combat resources to trigger them. On the other side of the coin, a character can get in a bad spot on blow 5-6 surges in one combat, early in the adventuring day and then be in the "Desperation" state for 3-4 consecutive combats. I don't like the idea of opening a combat multiple time in an adventuring day with desperation maneuvers.
Surges could be part of it. Maybe another mechanic is needed. Morale? Or something like an escalation die? How about a comparison of non-bloodied, non-minion enemies to non-bloodied allies?

It ("Desperation") seems very situational but to use something like that consistently, I'd like to see some simple metric rules tied to it.

TjD
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PostSubject: Re: Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.   Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:29 am

Good thoughts perhaps a combination where both Bloodied and Healing surges being low?

So that if you at half surges and unbloodied you arent yet quite desparate avoid that starting 3 or 4 fights desparate you mentioned.

You would have also had to run out of dailies as well ofcourse since they are replacements for big booms.

Monsters with Desperation moves are simply bloodied moves which rather already are quite doable.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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Garthanos
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PostSubject: Re: Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.   Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:43 am

Perhaps they could be like how action points work? Abstract the desparation to be when you are pushing through more encounters you get some extra bling...

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.   Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:49 am

Or tie gaining a despararation move to a failed or critical on an attack roll on (the first attk roll of) a daily power, giving them an unpredictable edge

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.   Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:04 am

I like the thought of multiple conditions to meet. I think I would tie it to at least one party condition. Atleast 1/2 of the party are bloodied. Definitely go with the character has spent all his/her daily powers. 1/2 or lower surges remaining.
Possibly also tie it to second wind. Maybe if you have not used your second wind you can use it and gain back a daily. If the have spent second wind, they can use 1 or 2 healing surges and immediately use an encounter power, even if already used.
Of course the spending of surges along with it means the 1/2 the party bloodied condition may not be met after one or two people use desperation, so it won't get really out of hand, just a small extra boost when they are really desperate.
TjD
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PostSubject: Re: Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.   Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:20 am

Tying something to party condition does sound interesting.

I think we all tend to get complicated with this one hmmmm.

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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Garthanos
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PostSubject: Re: Desparation Powers - cooler than adjusting the math.   Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:37 am

Durriken wrote:
just a small extra boost when they are really desperate.
TjD
At some level the boost is intended to be an actual accelerant remember so they probably need to be offensive. Not really targeting saving their bacon.

It might be a good thing if it encourages spending dailies in them earlier fights.

Maybe using 1/2 the party bloodied and you out of dailies doesn't have to mean they are truly desparate ...

What if a desperation move was a random daily? But whatever they are I want them to be different than the dailies you use normally
not just regaining a daily you already have used.

_________________
Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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