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 Bettering the Presentation for new games based on the 4e paradigm

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JohnLynch
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PostSubject: Re: Bettering the Presentation for new games based on the 4e paradigm   Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:23 am

Garthanos wrote:
At one point I considered the idea of inverse attribute generation you choose background (or more precisely skills) and you choose class and these things determine attributes... the blacksmith, athlete, forceful fighter will have high strength. This idea came to mind in the GURPS era actually.
I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying background determines trained skills and class determines which ability modifier is used? So a sorcerer uses cha for arcana checks while a wizard uses int?

If so that's rather ingenious. My current thinking is going with suggested ability modifiers with players being able to justify other ability scores through role playing. A barbarian can justify strength for intimidate while a wizard uses their detailed knowledge of biology to intimidate the target (int).
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PostSubject: Re: Bettering the Presentation for new games based on the 4e paradigm   Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:43 am

JohnLynch wrote:
Garthanos wrote:
At one point I considered the idea of inverse attribute generation you choose background (or more precisely skills) and you choose class and these things determine attributes... the blacksmith, athlete, forceful fighter will have high strength. This idea came to mind in the GURPS era actually.
I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying background determines trained skills and class determines which ability modifier is used? So a sorcerer uses cha for arcana checks while a wizard uses int?

If so that's rather ingenious. My current thinking is going with suggested ability modifiers with players being able to justify other ability scores through role playing. A barbarian can justify strength for intimidate while a wizard uses their detailed knowledge of biology to intimidate the target (int).
Put simply every other thing you choose for the most part determines your attributes.
GURPS didnt have much concept of different attributes bolstering a skill that is flexibility I have embraced much later.

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“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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Garthanos
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PostSubject: Re: Bettering the Presentation for new games based on the 4e paradigm   Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:49 am

Or the most specific choices affect the more general capabilities.

I decided I specifically wanted ability in Arcana (which may be flexibly between 3 mental stats you pick which one )

So therefore other fields not specifically trained in will be affected by that choice. The idea being attributes are the least narrowed down thing so they are affected by all else.

Does that convey the idea better?

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Bettering the Presentation for new games based on the 4e paradigm   Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:19 pm

Garthanos wrote:
One of the criticisms of fourth edition that struck a nerve to many folk was that the presentation of the game was lacking. This ranged from the use of the largely anachronistic term "power" to not including improvisation (alah page 42) in player facing examples.
I actually liked it. Beyond its surface-deep resemblance to WoW, it was an excellent system of design because it didn't try to impose flavor on the players using those powers.

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PostSubject: Re: Bettering the Presentation for new games based on the 4e paradigm   Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:18 pm

Heh perhaps a thread where we talk about aspects of presentation we like from 4e, like having the player facing permission to reflavor and present your abilities in terms of your character (and possibly the situation at hand.)

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Bettering the Presentation for new games based on the 4e paradigm   Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:25 pm

Garthanos wrote:
Or the most specific choices affect the more general capabilities.

I decided I specifically wanted ability in Arcana (which may be flexibly between 3 mental stats you pick which one )

So therefore other fields not specifically trained in will be affected by that choice. The idea being attributes are the least narrowed down thing so they are affected by all else.

Does that convey the idea better?
so your skills/class features determine your ability scores? If you take training in athletics and are a GReat Weapon Fighter that must mean you're strong so you gain a high strength score?

Very interesting way to do it. Backwards from D&D but interesting nonetheless.
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PostSubject: Re: Bettering the Presentation for new games based on the 4e paradigm   Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:03 am

JohnLynch wrote:
Garthanos wrote:
Or the most specific choices affect the more general capabilities.

I decided I specifically wanted ability in Arcana (which may be flexibly between 3 mental stats you pick which one )

So therefore other fields not specifically trained in will be affected by that choice. The idea being attributes are the least narrowed down thing so they are affected by all else.

Does that convey the idea better?
so your skills/class features determine your ability scores? If you take training in athletics and are a GReat Weapon Fighter that must mean you're strong so you gain a high strength score?

Very interesting way to do it. Backwards from D&D but interesting nonetheless.
From a general perspective its really doesnt matter much which direction you approach it - However the flexibility allowed by say melee training or zen, precision or forceful archer or inspired, intuited and learned religion ... or adding similar options to various other skills, those seem quite important both for enabling elegant multi-classing and character expression.

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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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Garthanos
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PostSubject: Re: Bettering the Presentation for new games based on the 4e paradigm   Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:07 am

JohnLynch wrote:
An example is:
Stay Back (Once per Battle)
Class: Fighter
Pre-requisite: Martial training
Action Type: Standard.
To Hit: Attack Bonus vs AC
I approve of the Attack Bonus flexibility it rocks


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Born To Be Kings and Heros -- From the Ashes Phoenix
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.

One suspects Lugh Long-hand Samildánach (a wright/carpenter, a sailor, a smith/bronze craftsman, a healer, a champion, a harpist, a poet/historian, a sorcerer, cupbearer) would agree.
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